Presbyterian Paedobaptism and Roman Catholic Paedobaptism Part 1

Once upon a time, in the comments of a post, a Roman Catholic asked me the difference between the Presbyterian and RC views on paedo-baptism (baptizing infants/children.) Both baptize infants. Are the views that different? Sometimes I see critiques of paedobaptism that only deal with one view, yet the writer acts as if they have vanquished all paedobaptists. There are four broad categories of paedobaptism I am aware of-Presbyterian/Reformed, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran. (Possibly Eastern Orthodox should be included as a separate category. I would include the Methodist view as a subset of the Anglican. Anglicans also have some differences among themselves.) These posts will only be dealing with the first two. I may address the others later.

These posts are also not intended as a defense for paedobaptism itself, nor are they intended as an examination of the credobaptist (Believer only) view. What they are intended to be is an overview of the differences between the Presbyterian/Reformed view and the Roman Catholic view. Undoubtedly, I may miss some of the finer nuances in doing this. So I welcome comments if anybody feels I miss anything, or misrepresent either view. If such comments are left I may interact with them in the comments section or in a new post. I may not interact with them here, but I will not ignore them. Which response I give will depend on the comments’ relevancy and on my time. Of course, it’s possible no comments will be left as well.

I will be presenting the two views primarily from the Roman Catholic Church’s most recent catechismCatechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) and the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF). These documents are seen as having validity for Roman Catholicism and Presbyterianism. (If anybody wants to jump in with the Heidelberg Catechism, which is the Reformed denominations’ counterpart to the WCF, please go ahead.)

Both Roman Catholics and Presbyterians refer to baptism as a sacrament and a means of grace, but they mean different things by this. Using the same terminology can certainly lead to confusion. I have seen more than one Baptist assuming we mean the same thing, and so “disproving” the Presbyterian view. In Roman Catholicism baptism is a means of grace as it wipes the slate clean and provides the recipient with grace with which they can co-operate to gain merit. The Presbyterian view is tied to the idea that baptism is tied to God’s covenant with His people and the promises and blessings of that Covenant. It is a means of grace in that sense. Both these descriptions are only scratching the surface, but it does show there are distinct differences.

In the CCC sacraments are described this way-

1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

1132 The Church celebrates the sacraments as a priestly community structured by the baptismal priesthood and the priesthood of ordained ministers.

1133 The Holy Spirit prepares the faithful for the sacraments by the Word of God and the faith which welcomes that word in well-disposed hearts. Thus the sacraments strengthen faith and express it.

1134 The fruit of sacramental life is both personal and ecclesial. For every one of the faithful an the one hand, this fruit is life for God in Christ Jesus; for the Church, on the other, it is an increase in charity and in her mission of witness.

Chapter 27 of the WCF describes sacraments this way-

1. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace, immediately instituted by God, to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him: as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church and the rest of the world; and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.

2. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.

3. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.

4. There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.

5. The sacraments of the old testament in regard of the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the new.

While there is some similar language used, when you read these you see the different emphases of each. The corresponding sections on baptism show the differences more clearly. I'll take a look at those in part 2.

Books, Books, Books

I have a weakness for books.
In many ways that's good, as you can learn a lot.
On the other hand there are a lot of bad books out there.
That's one of the reasons I review books here that I recommend.
(I plan on posting a new review soon.)
Also on the bad side is a temptation to make idols of my books, and not just my theological books.
I don't mean in the sense of "bibliolatry" that Roman Catholics have accused me of, nor making idols of favorite authors--I mean the actual books themselves, and the idea of books. (Although "bibliolatry" could be interpreted as "worship of books.")
I love books in general--all sorts of books.

The last time I moved there were jokes about how many books we were moving. But they weren't necessarily jokes after a while.

And there were questions-

"This box is more books?"
"How many books do you need?" (The answer is "At least one more.")
"Have you read all these?" (The answer is "Not enough of them.")

I re-read books, some many times.

I don't like marking up my books.
I have a list of them on file cards, and would love a program like the public library uses to list them and look them up by topic or author or even publisher.

I'm bringing this up because I was in a great mood when I got home today. Why?
I ordered two books from Banner of Truth back in late March, and they were on order so they took longer than usual to arrive. Well today there was a larger than normal envelope in the mail for me.

It was my new books. (New being a relative term-one was written in the late 1600's and the other in the early 1800's.) My mood was lifted.

These books will hopefully make it here as recommended reading.

For those of you curious about them I got-
Truth's Victory Over Error by Dave Dickson. It's a commentary on the Westminster Confession of Faith. Their description of it is "This book is not merely of historical interest; it is also of considerable value now because many of the errors refuted within its pages have surfaced again in the 21st century church under new guises. Christians today can learn a great deal from the faithful witness of former generations who experienced ‘truth’s victory over error’."

The other is Hugh Martin's Shadow Of Calvary, where he looks at Christ from the Garden of Gethsemane through to his arrest and trial.

I should probably log off and start reading...

PCA General Assembly

Dave at rotundus already posted about this, but I was intending to as well.

General Assembly is now over for this year, but there are sessions online to check out here.

I hope to be there in person sometime--especially if they ever decide to bring it up to Canada.

Some of the sessions are mostly business and may not interest everyone, or make sense to those not knowing what's going on. But I find most of it interesting. I also like that the PCA puts this online so anybody can check it out if they wish.
I'm checking out several sessions today.

Non-hierarchal Presbyterianism--L. Roy Taylor

I found this article interesting, and would like to share it for those who may be interested in the structure of the PCA.

Non-hierarchal Presbyterianism

The link tkaes you to the website of Beal Heights Presbyterian Church (PCA), Lawton, Oklahoma. I received this article in an email, but it is here online.

Presbytery Time Again

Actually it's come and gone.

It was a very good Presbytery overall. It was mostly good news, with some exciting news for the future. God was praised, prayers were made, God's Word was opened and read and exposited. I was encouraged, and so were others. The host church did a great job.

We're a young Presbytery in the PCA, and so a meeting like this one was helpful in our growth.

Some things were sort of bittersweet, some we'd rather not ahve had to hear, but overall a very positive experience.

Some of the people there were great encouragers. Some of these were brothers and sisters who had praying for me in my recent trials, and were encouraged by how I have recovered-(And that I was able to attend.) That is one thing I love about Presbytery-the chance to encourage one another face to face.

Some things there gave me ideas for possible posts down the line, and hopefully to encourage those who read them. They won't be specifically about the people or events that gave me the ideas, but looking at a bigger picture.

And so to all who planned and rpepared for Presbytery, to all the people I spoke with and enjoyed fellowship with, and to all who had been praying for me, I'd like to thank you.

Book Recommendation-On Being Presbyterian by Sean Michael Lucas

That I was reading a book called, “On Being a Presbyterian” amused a newer attendee of our congregation. Certainly I should know what it means to be a Presbyterian-after all I have been one for many years. I advised the book was on loan from our pastor, and I was interested in seeing how the author stated things. It would also be a good review, and in the history portion it could provide new information. I would also know if it was a book I could recommend, and I highly recommend it.

The subtitle of the book also indicates the sections in it, “Our beliefs, practices, and stories.” Lucas is dean of faculty and assistant professor of church history at Covenant Theological Seminary, so he is no stranger or outsider to Presbyterianism, or the PCA.

In Part 1 he looks at Presbyterian Beliefs. He does look at what we would have in common with other Christians, but the bulk is looking at the distinctives. This section has 5 chapters, but it is not one for each of the letter of TULIP, as some might assume. The five points of Calvinism do appear, but in Chapter 2 where he explains the Presbyterian beliefs on grace. This is where they belong. They are part of the picture, but not the whole picture. The chapter subjects are God’s sovereignty, grace, covenant and kingdom, the Church and sacraments. The chapters are well done looks at these beliefs. He doesn’t merely state what the beliefs are, but looks at how they affect the others, and us.

Part 2 is on Presbyterian practices. These do involve beliefs, and so this section flows out of the last one. In the first chapter of this section Lucas explains why he uses the word piety, and what he means by it. It’s on how we practice our beliefs, but also who we base them on. It’s a well done look at how God is connected to them.

In Part 2 he also writes on worship and church government. The chapter on worship is refreshing in that he looks at all worship, not just music and singing. Too often we use worship too narrowly. This short look at worship is instructive in how worship is more. The chapter on church government is also instructive as some feel this distinctive is a bigger difference between Presbyterians and Baptists than sacraments.

Part 3 is on Presbyterian stories. He presents an interesting historical look at how we got from the Reformers to what we have in North America today. Calvin and Knox loom large n the first part. He looks at the divisions, reunions, and new denominations as well. It gives a clear picture at how we got where we are today.

I highly recommend this book for all Christians, not just Presbyterians. I would also recommend it to any who are interested in church history. Its more obvious benefits would be for those who are new to Presbyterianism, or those who are considering attending or joining a Presbyterian church. But Christians with no intention of being Presbyterian could also benefit by better understanding of their brothers and sisters. I would read the same sort of book written by non-Presbyterian Christians if they were available. (This one is published by P&R Publishing.)

"Don't they baptize babies?"

(There is a point here, please bear with me. Thanks.)
A while back I posted a link to a page on baptism on mongergism.com-(This one here.) On that page there are a large number of links to articles on baptism, especially ones defending either paedo (infant/child) or credo (believers) baptism. One of my readers asked about the similarities between the Presbyterian & Roman Catholic views on paedobaptism. I've been working on that, but other things keep coming up and I am not happy with the current state of what I've written. But it is coming.

In writing it I did realize that credobaptists may read it and say, "So what?" From their perspective neither Presbyterians nor Roman Catholics have the correct view. The point of the article is not to defend paedobaptism, but to show the differences between two views on it.

This train of thought reminded me of when I first started attending a Presbyterian Church. My non-Presbyterian Christian friends often seemed amazed or concerned. I would often hear some form of the question, "Don't they baptize babies?" Often the tone of their voice was as if they were asking, "Don't they eat babies?" or some other atrocity. They were often amazed that although, yes, Presbyterians baptize babies, it isn't the cornerstone of their existence, belief and practice. It still happens, and we hear it from visitors.

Yes, Presbyterians do baptize babies. No, it doesn't make us aliens, monsters, or outcasts. We value our credobaptist brothers and sisters, and we share the same gospel, especially with those who are reformed. We learn from them, and they learn from us. Not all who hold to paedobaptism are Christians. Neither are all who hold to credobaptism. What you hold to about baptism may not affect your salvation, unless you tie salvation directly to baptism (for example those who hold to some form of baptismal regenration.) The PCA doesn't require members to hold to paedobaptism. The reason is we don't wish to add conditions to salvation that are not in the Bible.

There Goes Good old Presbytery

Well, it's come and gone again.

Some wonderful fellowship, and some great worship, and even fun in the committee meeting--that was Presbytery. It's not all perfect, but we're a young Presbytery and we're sorting things out. I was encouraged to hear others are like minded in several ways.

If you belong to a Church that holds Presbytery and you have the opportunity to attend--I would encourage you to try it-hopefully you will see the good, and pray for the less than good. Hopefully you will be encouraged by Church Government in action.

I'm looking forward to the next one--I think it will be better.

General Assembly

I haven't had the time to listen to much of the PCA's General Assembly (see 2 posts below.) So unfortunately, I can't comment yet.

Now if anything from GA affects Presbytery, maybe I can get to that.

PCA General Assembly

The highest level of Church Government in the PCA is currently holding its Annual General Assembly.

ByFaith has several links to it. We can read, hear and watch what's going on.
Hopefully we will see men working together for the Kingdom. Working on ways to reach the unsaved, and worshiping God.

Here are some links-
This the main General Assembly page on ByFaith
You can go here to register or sign in to view archived sessions, or see what's going on at live
The Official Blog of Gneral Assembly
General Assembly's Schedule

Check them out.
I may be blogging on some of the sessions I view online, if my schedule permits.

Things in the PCUSA

I'm not here to gloat about these things, but to shake my head and pray for the Church at large.

When Sola Scriptura is disregarded this is what happens.

Presbyterians (PCUSA) OK Leeway for Ordaining Gays

Presbyterians (PCUSA) allow experimenting with alternatives to 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit'

Presbyteer, who is a PCUSA member comments on the second story on his blog, here.

Like I said--these sorts of things call for prayer.
What's wrong with "Father, SOn & Holy Spirit"? These are titles found in the Bible.